[VioletSkye]

Shotacon, sometimes shortened to shota, refers to a genre of manga and anime wherein pre-pubescent or pubescent male characters are depicted in a suggestive or erotic manner. The equivalent term for attraction to (or art pertaining to erotic portrayal of) young girls is lolicon.
The usage of the term in both Western and Japanese fan cultures includes works ranging from explicitly pornographic to mildly suggestive, romantic or entirely nonsexual. As such, shotacon themes and characters are used in a variety of non-erotic media. Elements of shotacon, like yaoi, are comparatively common in shōjo manga, such as the popular translated manga Loveless (which features an eroticized but unconsummated relationship between the 12-year-old male protagonist and his 20-year-old male "fighter unit"), or the young-appearing character Honey in Ouran High School Host Club. Seinen manga, particularly that aimed at otaku, also occasionally presents eroticised adolescent males in a non-pornographic context, such as the cross-dressing 16-year-old boy in Yubisaki Milk Tea. On the extreme there is the Pico series where a young adult, befriends and engages in a sexual relationship with an effeminate adolescent boy with no friends and subsequent series focus on Pico,Chico and Pico, Chico, Coco young boys engaging in explicit sexual relationships with each other, as well as the Enzai series which is a sexually charged prison story and dipicts rape.
Some critics claim that the shotacon genre contributes to actual sexual abuse of children, while others point out that there is no evidence for this,or that there is evidence to the contrary, not so long ago A U.S. comic book collector was sentenced to six months in prison after pleading guilty to importing and possessing Japanese manga books depicting illustrations of child sex.
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MOD EDIT: link removed
I have read a few topics within EE and done a search on this topic and found out most people do not like Shota. Now I understand that this is touchy subject for those that like and do not like Shota, but I wanted to open this discussion so we can have healthy debate on the subject. Personally I have no problem with Shota, I have read it and liked it, some of my favourite, being Junjou Romantica, Gakuen Heaven, Kirepapa and Koutetsu Sangokushi just to mention a few, however I believe like Yaoi and Yuri, Shounen-ai and Lolicon this is another form of self expression, there is nothing wrong with the reading or drawing of Shotacon, however the grey area arises when people use it as a form of pornography, although it is difficult to draw the line as to where the appreciation of the genre stops and the perversion begins.

A few rules:

Please DO NOT judge/abuse/ or dismiss people's views on the subject
We want to hear the good and bad rationale regarding this genre, so please do not focus on the LEGALITIES alone.
And finally lets keep this clean and if in doubt look at the FF FORUM RULES

MOD NOTE: No external website links are allowed within the walls of the empire.
~deeneez fruits mod

This post has been edited by DeeNeez: 09 June 2010 - 01:32 AM
Reason for edit: external link removed

[kirimaru]

In this issue i choose neutral stance, because shota genre itself spread in every type manga. People who felt offensive with shota because in their environment there are strict restriction about sex with under age and vice verse. Because spread of shota genre in every type manga, it very hard to a exact judgment about it.

[~ShiftingShadows]

Like with many things, there are different levels of shota/loli, and it's when you reach a certain level that it gets a little disturbing.

I have absolutely no problem with Loveless or Ouran, they're two of my fondest manga/anime. Ritsuka in Loveless may be fetishized on the side, but it's hardly pornographic, or even erotic. And I've never seen anything remotely suggestive of Honey before. Even Junjou Romantica and Gakuen Heaven, which is straight up yaoi, I have no problem with. The characters may be technically "underage" in those, but they're in that area where it's not the same as taking advantage of a small child. In most yaoi, yuri too, the main character can hardly be considered shota/loli because they're practically legal anyway, usually 17 or 16 is the youngest you see.

The thing that gets people in a tither is when a painfully obviously young child is part of it. Somewhere around 10 years or younger looking is the general no-go zone (Note: I'm aware Ritsuka is only 12, but he DOES look older than he is, and again, he's never explicitly fetishized). Here's where people get uncomfortable. Because there's just something fundamentally disturbing about sexualizing a young child.

Now, it's not my fetish, but if someone feels like reading manga about it, I don't really care what they have on their bookshelf. I think this case of the man being arrested for owning shota and loli is ridiculous and unfair. This isn't the same as actual child pornography, where a child is humiliated and recorded. These are drawings, technically no different than all of the Simpsons porn out there of Bart and Lisa, the kids _{(Please don't ask how I know about that, the internet can be a horrible, cruel place)}

When it comes to real child pornography, I'm all for stopping it. But persecuting someone for owning books of drawings is going way too far. I understand the reasoning-- They think if someone stares at stuff like this when he's home, what is he staring at when he's out around real children? And in some cases this may be true. You never know. Because each person is different. But accusing someone of rape because they have pornography showing actors pretending to rape each other is not acceptable evidence, and this is the same as doing that.

[ashiefun]

I have read shota and really like it, I believe that as long as it is viewed as a piece of literature and not pornography, it can be appreciated and enjoyed. I enjoy it and rip up the internet looking for it! :05ab:

[jess_hentai]

That depends... I sometimes read shota and lolicon just for the heck of it (or out of curiosity).

If the topic/story is fantasy then I have no problem with it. But if the story is totally realistic...I'm a bit offended by it......

Its hard to explain.....like for example, the Tanutan or Shounen Ebisen by CJ Michalski. I find it cute and funny reading it. But it never cross my mind it would be a REAL little boy having sex with an adult.

But I read this one manga about an Uncle tricking his little 8 year old nephew about 'milk' over his winnie.......ok, this one I hate it. Mainly because its realistically true on real life situations. And I happen to know someone who've been sexually harassed by his uncle years ago when he was 10... He got over with it after chatting with us privately.

I have a friend who loves shota, we keep arguing about how I hate her and I'm gonna pound her. :05o: But she hates yaoi, especially adult bulky muscles ones. Its a childish argument, not that serious. But when we took it seriously.... I mean my gawd! You like little boys? She was 17, she said, ewwwwww! Not real little boys! She explained to me that she only likes it in manga, not in real life. Of course she hates real life children, their not cute and obnoxiously loud brats. Then she showed me a wiki about shotacon lovers. Aaaah, so its just a fantasy thing, not to be taken realistically and seriously. On some more topics she showed me some comments of others, its just a 'weird' thing, but not real life kind of way. So I understood her. I read a few shota, but I'm very very picky. I hate things like that "Uncle tricking his nephew" kind of stories. But I do love to see Fei-long x Tao from Viewfinder series.

In short, I would hate shota if it connects too much in real life Pedophilia. But I dont mind if its all unrealistic fantasies.

But I guess people really dont like it because of the "Under age" thing and connect too much on child molesters.

By the way, I met someone whose childhood friend is a real Pedophile.... he said his friend is "sick" but he still stick with him out of friendship. Their Adults. But yeah he keeps trying to have him avoid any pedophilia actions. He said it was hard especially when he has a niece. And he tried to keep it a secret from everyone, if people find out about his friend's sickness, his life is over... And about Pedophiles...well, from this guy, he said his friend really loves young boys and girls. But not mangas. I dont know much but its what he told me. So Phedos like real life children than imaginary? They even collect nude children photos....

Aside from that I kinda encounter a phedo a few years ago. Long story short, I made a stupid move spying child selling.... Not a pretty sight and I'm still havent gotten over with it....so its a bit hard to enjoy funny unrealistic shota manga while I have this bad memories.....Shota lovers out there are lucky, they lived a peaceful life without any bad encounters of real pedophilia. So I understand how they can enjoy it very much.

[kayue]

Thanks for bringing up this interesting topic.

I'm in the shota-lover category, mostly.
As with most manga, I have no problems with ink & paper depictions of things that I couldn't imagine being cool with in real life (talking animals, giant robots, megalomaniacs, et al) I have no desire to see any RL children, or adult, males in an intimate situation. But with yaoi... :05d:

I have seen the Pico series, and the first, Boku no Pico, is disturbingly realistic. The first time I saw it, it was like, "Wow, a How-To guide for pedophiles!" The second & third movies are less disturbing as they focus on a relationship between kids, rather than a child and an adult. They are almost innocent in a way.

There needs to be a distinction drawn between what I think of as hentai-shota, and yaoi-shota.
Hentai-shota is all about the sex. The art is generally more explicit & simplistic. (More pee-pees, less story) And written by & for adult males to read. Don't forget, shota can be between an adult female and a male child, as well as between two males.
Yaoi-shota is more about the story... even a sex-driven story (see CJ Michalski or Asia Watanabe stories for examples) The art is generally more implicit than explicit. (More love, less chinko) And like most yaoi, written by & for females.

As a female, I prefer the second. :05q:

[midnighteater]

Shota and lolicon are genres which can be concidered as the grey zone.
Coz some mangas I think have a very unhealthyway of using these little girls and boys for sexual relationship.
Only these type of usage is disturbing.
In Ouran and LOVELESS is more like a motherly instint to protect these kids.
It´s platonic, so I think it is OK to show affection in purely platonic way in these shota mangas.

[VioletSkye]

~ShiftingShadows, on 09 June 2010 - 01:38 AM, said:

the main character can hardly be considered shota/loli because they're practically legal anyway, usually 17 or 16 is the youngest you see.(Note: I'm aware Ritsuka is only 12, but he DOES look older than he is, and again, he's never explicitly fetishized)

I think most people view the above point as a justification or rational to try and make it acceptable, yes there is no actual sexual relationship between the two main characters in Loveless that you see, however it is highly suggested

Spoiler

that they eventully do it when the male Zero pair suggest that Soubi is not as strong as he should be because they do not share that kind of relationship, and then they go outside fighting the female zero pair

another example is in Kirepapa, when the father starts dating his son's best friend it doesn't seem like Shota as it is the best friend who instigates the sexual relationship between them, the same goes for Junjou Romantica, it is Shinobu who pursues a relationship with Yō Miyagi, I think this kind of portrayal makes it easier to accept or at least allows us to overlook the fact that they are still young, and I believe that its this kind of portrayal that most people including me prefer

As for the U.S comic collector, unfortunately I can not sympathize with him as it was illegal in that state to have such manga. He continued importing manga of this nature knowing it was illegal, it is not as if the entire country has criminalised manga of this nature, he should really just have moved, having said that I do agree that it is not fair that this particular state chose to criminalise this type or illustration as I think it impedes on ones' freedom of expression.(Having said that someone else could argue that anyone can change a photograph into a drawing...)there really is no end in sight :ysad:

ashiefun, on 09 June 2010 - 04:06 AM, said:

I have read shota and really like it, I believe that as long as it is viewed as a piece of literature and not pornography, it can be appreciated and enjoyed. I enjoy it and rip up the internet looking for it! :05ab:

Yes I agree with you, however where does the appreciation of the literature end and the pornography begins, that is the argument...lol I suggest we enjoy it while it lasts because the way things are going I don't think it will.

[Katsumi Koomi Gogo]

I think it's ok if people like shota, i like shota, i don't love it, but as long as it's only fantasies in a manga i think it's fine, i don't support pedophilia at all >.<
There's a big difference between manga/anime and real life, so i don't see what's the big deal about it. I'm not saying there isn't people out there that like shota because they like real children, but it should be considered as any other genre.
I don't really care if the shota is the one that approches to the relationship or if the 'grown-up' is the one that wants to be with the shota, it's the same, i think people should realize how this is all unreal, it's not real life.
And about that guy that got arrested, i think it's ok if he got arrested because what he was doing is illegal, but i think it's stupid to have a law that doesn't allow people to have this kind of manga, i mean, it's just drawings, it's not like you have pictures of real children.
Btw, when it comes to sex, shota also has the shotaxshota thingy, so not all R-18 shota stories has grown up men/women with little kids, which sometimes are not that little actually.
And about the mangas/animes, i can barely consider Enzai as a shota, tho some of the character are under age(the main character is 14 for example) i don't think they look like the age they have, just like Honey doesn't look his age (he's 17) and he's considered a shota anyway.
(Sorry for the bad english, i'm a bit lazy to google the words i don't know how to write x3)

[AnnieJ]

Most of what I wanted to say has been said, lol. I'm in the same vein as people who don't support real life pedophilia.

For me, I generally like "yaoi-shota" (as kayue said above). I didn't even realize Ouran counted as shota, lol. Gakuen Heaven was cute (I only watched it though, didn't read it), and I hardly thought of that as shota either. I guess the age difference is a big deal for me. I can't remember what the series was called, but there was a swimming pool lifeguard and one of the regulars there. He was like, almost 20, and the kid was 6-8. It just looked so wrong to see them having sex! I read another too where the recipient was about 5... Didn't suit my taste. I am all for regular yaoi... even reasonably muscly men. But with little kids, I'm a bit more sensitive to it all. With adolescents (e.g. Ritsuka who's 12), it doesn't bother me (then again, I feel like that's not very shota either, lol).

Ultimately, I don't care what people choose to read/create. It doesn't bother me that much... i just stay away from hentai-shota :P

[sofeenalee]

One thing I've noticed about reading manga and watching anime is that it's given me quite the 2D complex. My view on shota and other such genres is that they are a good way of releasing hidden possible desires so that it doesn't even occur to the person to act on it in real life. It could be one of the main reasons that Japan actually has one of the lowest sex crime rates in the world.

[readingjewel]

I personally think that sense it is Japanese and they approve of it then nothings wrong with. Also if this is your thing then that's what you like. But everyone has an opinion and not everyone is going to agree with it because shota is mostly dealing with children in erotic manners.

[Ex-Parrot]

Personally, I don't mind shota (the yaoi variety, as I've never read any with an adult female), but by no means do I seek it out. If I see a plot overview that seems interesting, or catches my eye, then yes, I'll probably download and read it, regardless of whether it is shota or not.

On the whole, I agree with many of the other people here who have said that they like shota, in that as long as it's not viewed as actual pornography or taken to occur in real life, I don't have a problem with it. I don't mind if it's in a realistic setting, either, as to me, manga-whatever it may be-always occurs in some sort of alternate universe or something.

Though I must say, one thing that will put me off of reading a shota for sure is rape. I can handle rape in other yaoi manga with characters that are closer to the same age, but I cannot read stories with shota rape. I have tried before, but I simply find it to be a bit much for me.

Of course, I do not begrudge anyone who likes to read manga containing such things-to each their own-but it is one thing that I personally do not like about a good portion of shota yaoi.

[cassielkun]

Well, I don't like shota myself. (Of course I tend to usually use the age of consent as a cut of point of what I consider shota, which is 15 where I live, so there are some of the titles you mentioned that I wouldn't consider shota. So what I deem shota is generally pre-pubescent boys and that isn't really my thing.)

However, my (and your) tastes and personal opinions are kind of irrelevant because there is one big thing staring at us here. Since there is no actual real life connection (and therefor no victim) it is a fantasy and as a fantasy it is a thought crime at most, and we cannot condemn thoughts. It's only if and when thoughts cross over into reality that they deserve condemnation or punishment. Take murder for instance. We seem to be more or less fine with murder in films, literature, manga etc. and that's fine, some people hate that and some people will like it or even hold fantasies about it. However, it's not until someone crosses the line to bring the fantasy into reality that it becomes criminal. Same goes with rape fantasies. Having rape fantasies or liking rape themed porn is fine and a personal choice, but raping people is not.

(And before anyone tries to twist this into my saying that people watching real-life child pornography is ok, it's NOT what I'm saying. Because in that case every copy of the original abuse is a new violation of the victim.)

I didn't express myself all that eloquently (I seem to recall saying more or less the same thing, but phrased better, on the old Evil Empire) but I'm tired and overworked (too much research still left to do).
Anyhow, that's just how I see it.

[Yaoifreak10293]

I don't support actual pedophilia, but I do like Shota. As long as it stays as part of literature then its cool with me. Like an example would be Papa to Kiss in the Dark, I loved that series. But even if you enjoy shota then as long as you understand that its literature then really it should be ok. I do understand that shota makes some people uncomfortable but really if they don't like it then they don't have to read it its as simple as that.

[dharke]

It depends on one point of view. If you can be mature about it then, you can enjoy shota. In most of the shota I read the pre-pubescent boys are not really that young though they do look young. There is a degree of maturity to them regardless of their appearance. With that I usually look unto the characters as I would one that is adult-like. Shota are just there to make our reading interesting. :)

[VioletSkye]

Your opinions are greatly appreciated and as far as I can tell everyone who has responded has confessed to liking Shota. Yes some of the characters are pubescent, however, they are still under the legal age of sexual responsibility. We all have our justifications as to what is appropriate and what isn't,most of us (myself included)seem to gloss over the fact that most of the story's in Shota could actually happen in real life. In fact almost all manga stories could happen in real life (a little exaggerated in the manga but still possible)unless you are reading fantasy. The characters in shota despite their age are drawn to look a hell of a lot younger than they actually are. Is there a reason to it, is it not the artist/author's choice to make them look like preschoolers and then slap an "appropriate" age so as not to offend their audience, we the audience then turn around as say it's okay because the author says they are of consenting age. Seriously though how many 17 year old boys do you know that actually look like they could still be in kindergarten. I am fully aware that this is fiction and I have admitted that I am a fan of the genre itself, however I am still disturbed by some of the manga I have come across.

[silver_rain]

Loveless = the greatest shonen-ai manga ever made.
I think there is nothing wrong with shota, if the both sides feel mutual. However, if it's one way (as in, the older of the two forcefully manipulating an innocent child) then it's a bit too much. As the older, the person has to be aware what kind of psychological effect they might have on their younger lover, and be prepared to suppport him through his emotionally unstable times. If those conditions are not met, shota just goes..... illegal? lol

[cassielkun]

VioletSkye, on 12 June 2010 - 08:42 AM, said:

Your opinions are greatly appreciated and as far as I can tell everyone who has responded has confessed to liking Shota.

Well, except for me. I tend to find it usually falls outside my tastes. But that's just the point I made. My taste is irrelevant as to whether or not something is wrong.

[jj-chan]

hmmmmmmmg sticky topic. i don't really find anything wrong with shota, yeah it squicks a lot of people and i yes, totally see where they're coming from. but! unless a kid is actually hurt by it (unlike real, live-action child pornography) read and let read, i say.

Quote

However, my (and your) tastes and personal opinions are kind of irrelevant because there is one big thing staring at us here. Since there is no actual real life connection (and therefor no victim) it is a fantasy and as a fantasy it is a thought crime at most, and we cannot condemn thoughts. It's only if and when thoughts cross over into reality that they deserve condemnation or punishment. Take murder for instance. We seem to be more or less fine with murder in films, literature, manga etc. and that's fine, some people hate that and some people will like it or even hold fantasies about it. However, it's not until someone crosses the line to bring the fantasy into reality that it becomes criminal. Same goes with rape fantasies. Having rape fantasies or liking rape themed porn is fine and a personal choice, but raping people is not.

Quote

Now, it's not my fetish, but if someone feels like reading manga about it, I don't really care what they have on their bookshelf. I think this case of the man being arrested for owning shota and loli is ridiculous and unfair.

basically everything they said except it is my fetish sometimes. and on the subject of that guy who was arrested, ugh. that guy was a collector, he collected thousands of manga and the lolicon was a small part of it. also they couldn't get him on possession so they convicted him on transporting the books. :/

as for personal preferences... well i've always said i'm willing to try most everything, and if i refuse a rec on sole basis of shota that'd make me a hypocrite. and i have read gorgeously written shota fanfics, so. as usual, it all depends on the quality of manga in question.

more specifics:
i don't much care for the pico series, it's PURE titillation and i found it stupid so whatev.
neither do i like kirapapa (hokey storytelling), papa to kiss (hokey-er storytelling) or their ilk.
loveless, however, has enticed me with beautiful art and intrigued me with (STILL UNRESOLVED yun kouga sometimes i hate you) thready plot/worldbuilding and sold me with the characters.
...gah m tired sorry for rambling